SPEAKER_00 0:00

Men welcome to the most important podcast that you'll hear in a long time. It's the Men's Leadership Community Podcast, and it starts now.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

We're very happy today, and I'm very honored to um introduce our co-host today. You guys know Mr. CJ Marks. Um, he's he's been around and you've seen him in our our get togethers, our open mics, and man, he's been working with Andy, kind of walking with him through the hero's journey.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

And Andy, I'm gonna let you take over and kind of you know, and if you don't if you don't get the opportunity to stay on for our after party on Friday mornings when it's over, CJ comes up with some of the best questions and some of the greatest insights from our calls, and what a blessing that's been. So let's throw it up jazz style for CJ this morning. Here we go. Thank you, CJ, for being with us. So, CJ, great to have you with us. So go ahead and slip over to the next slide there for us and make sure that we understand CJ. CJ kind of said some of these things, or CJ, you may have thought some of these things when we first met. Kind of these problems when we get to the not only the hero's journey, but what does it mean to share your story? Um, two kind of problems that come up is number one, a lot of guys go, oh, well, I just don't have a story, or I don't have an exciting story. You hear like Joshua Broom and Radical Redemption, you're like, oh, well, I just I don't have an as exciting story as that. JB put up an amazing Instagram video this week. Uh, with when you say something like that, well, I I don't have a story. JB, you put up there in that video what you really mean is I just don't understand the gospel or I don't know the gospel yet. Because how could you have now come into a relationship with Jesus Christ and go, oh, I just don't have a very exciting story? You know, so what a great video. And I think CJ, maybe at the beginning you had that feeling of, oh, my story's not as exciting as this, or somebody else's, but I think you're in a different place now with that, aren't you?

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I'm looking forward to getting feedback on my story. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Audio, by the way, does does it sound okay?

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Yeah, you sound great. Yeah, yeah. You've got a you got a great voice for uh, you know, radio, as they say. Uh yeah. And a handsome young face for TV. So you got two things going for you that my wife says I don't. So there you go. Appreciate it, though. But the second problem, and and CJ, maybe just speak to this real quick, not knowing how to share your story. I think that was maybe more of what I think you knew you had a story. Uh, didn't know necessarily that you were supposed to share it broadly with a lot of people, but then we got into the question of, well, then how do you go about doing this? Uh, you know, where were you at the beginning of this process?

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I was trying to figure out what how to condense it because I had a huge amount of story. 40 years, because I was introduced to Christianity at such an early age, I didn't really feel like there was a moment I could identify where I didn't know who Jesus was, that I didn't know what the core message of the Bible was. And so, how do I condense and find the key points of my story that God wants me to tell that will help other people and be the most and bring them the most joy and and influence their lives in the most important ways? That was the challenging part for me because I had this huge outline of the things that I wanted to talk about, but you suggested condensing it, putting it into five pages, having a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then just transition in between each of those. And um, so I got it down to five and a half pages. I couldn't get it any shorter than that, and that helped a lot, I think. So I could pull stuff out that wasn't really part of it. I could find where I wanted the key transition to be in the middle and kind of center things around that.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Yeah, and we worked through a little bit of the outline that we have for the hero's journey doing that, kind of how things start off, kind of status quo. Young Christian, things are going great. You you're you're climbing up that first mountain, and all of a sudden, though, there are some uh issues that take place where the hero takes, you know, the they call it the subsequent fall down the side of the mountain, has a long uh night, you know, long, long winter or long night's journey of the soul. Uh, and and in that, what I love, and you're gonna bring that up in the story, is when we want to share our stories of radical redemption in Christ, they're not whitewashed, right? I mean, there's there's some there's some real open, honest, vulnerable reality of sin and brokenness in there that we want to share that you have in your story that you know, I think that's the part you're asking. You want some feedback on and how Christ has brought you through that.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Yeah, absolutely. It's it's constantly a temptation when telling a story to uh want to make myself the hero, to make myself look inflated and important. And I just realized the more I try to do that, it I it didn't, it wasn't a very interesting story, and it didn't feel honest or truthful, and um, I needed to make the story be about God and what God did in my life. And that's when I really felt that there was a story to tell.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

You know, and you just kind of describe what most of us are posting on social media, which is a highly filtered look at how awesome me and my family are. Everything's always perfect, and it's just not real and it's not honest. Uh, and this is a very different aspect of storytelling that we want to be doing with the MLC because, uh, CJ, when we talked about this, and Obi, you know I'm a big fan of this quote: friendship is born at the moment when one person hears another person's story and goes, Oh, you too. I thought I was the only one that had been through this. And you don't get that on social media posts when everything's filtered, whitewashed, and you're seeing just the successes and the best of everyone. That actually happens when you hear the honesty of somebody's story and go, wow, okay, I didn't know somebody could be so confident in sharing this where I could go, you know what, I've had some brokenness in my past too. Would you like to hear about mine? You know, CJ, where does that leave you then with your your you the impact or um uh the MLC and and what you enjoy about it with this brotherhood that's trying to be open, honest, and vulnerable with one another in a different way than social media?

SPEAKER_03 6:32

I think this is just a journey that we're all on to discover these universal truths in our stories that we can find in ourselves. If you find something that you can identify with, that's because we're all broken, just as the Bible tells us we all come from sinful beginnings, but it's Christ that redeems us. It's Jesus that lifts us up out of that brokenness and helps us find our true purpose in life.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah. And, you know, that gets what a great segue, by the way. CJ was like, I don't know how I'm gonna do with this. I'm like, you're doing awesome. You're you're like setting up every uh slide before we get there. You know, and the the the hero's journey, one of the things that we work through that we want all of you to go through, not just your the exercise of the vision, mission, and values, but actually get into writing your story and then sharing it, like CJ's doing this morning. It really helps us with these kind of three key components of our everyday life. Is when we say it helps you become comfortable with your past, radical redemption gives you the opportunity and the blessing to own your story versus your past owning you. And now all of a sudden you can say, Yes, I have these issues that have happened in my past, but Christ has redeemed those. They're a part of my story, but they're not who I am. So when we say comfortable with our past, Obi, it's about this opportunity now to own your past versus your past owning you. And you can only own your past with that kind of confidence uh in Christ, where you're not stressing about it or worrying about who's gonna find out this about me, you know, and the burden and the weight of like who's gonna who at some point is gonna find out who I've been and where I've been, you know, versus now guess hey, I'll tell you who I've been and where I've been.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Yeah, I'd rather just be open and honest up front and let people know where I've been rather than have somebody find out after the fact that I was hiding something and that somehow I'm embarrassed about it because I don't have anything to be embarrassed about when I know that Jesus has redeemed me from all that I've done.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

There's there's so much freedom being, you know, being comfortable with your past through Christ, right? We we're no longer ashamed.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

We're pointing now to a story of redemption radically pretty huge for three areas of of CJ's life. I know, along with mine, your marriage, your parenting, and your work. I mean, these are kind of three areas where you want to have that openness, that honesty, and that confidence, uh, you know, that you can go in and be straightforward with your wife, your children, or the people that are in your workspace with you. So that gives you that confidence in your present that CJ, I think you're living out very powerfully right now in the way that our friendship's growing, and I'm getting to know you. You have a very uh CJ is blessed with a gift of humility that I am not. And and it's always a joy to be around you because you have an authentic humility about you. You know, and I I always admire guys that have that authenticity of humility because pride is is one of the huge issues in my life that is always rearing its ugly head, and the new man in Christ is always having to battle uh the old man's pride in me with that humility. But you have this uh you have this humble boldness to you, uh, which I really enjoy in being around you. And then it it helps us to now look at our future in a compassionate way where we're thinking about others and not just about ourselves. And CJ, that's one of the reasons why you want to share this morning.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah, I I I hope that it makes an impact. And I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think of it.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Awesome. Well, let's jump right in. You know, this new perspective on story uh allows us to see our past through the lens of forgiveness we've talked about, allows us to eagerly look to our future with the bright eyes of hope and love, which you can see in CJ, and allows us to live in the present and engage our current circumstances with a greater peace, courage, and strength. So uh go ahead and go to let's start with Obi CJ's vision, mission, and values.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Would you like me to read it?

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Yeah, so CJ, you know, this is part of that exercise we do. Uh, and it begins with uh coming up with our vision statement that has two key aspects. Two, a way that we want to grow in ourselves, pardon me, and then so that the impact we want that growth to have on others.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yes, so my vision statement with the help of uh Pastor Andy that I've come up with and evolved over time is to share a deeper understanding of different viewpoints that unite people in Jesus Christ so that believers may pursue healthy and fulfilling lives in their communities and beyond.

SPEAKER_04 11:17

I think that's huge. I mean, it's so different from yours and from mine, and everybody's gonna have a different vision statement, but these are huge. And and CJ, you're you actually are excited about hearing other viewpoints, not just your own.

unknown 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

So I think huge point of wanting to grow in that. Why is that?

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Because maybe it's the the humble bold boldness that you felt I was gifted with. I I don't feel threatened by hearing a different perspective that's different than mine. I don't feel um ashamed if someone knows something that I don't or has a different opinion. I'm I'm genuinely interested, and I've it's something that I've God has really grown in me too is my listening skills and uh my ability to persevere in in conflict. I I'm not perfect, I do get angry, and I do have my own selfish agendas and don't handle conflict perfectly, but um I I do have um conflict skills that uh people rely on me for at work and um at home where I like to help things reach resolution. I I don't tend to sweep things under the rug. I like to discuss things and work it out and find common ground if possible and realize that we're an impasse and we can leave things be, if not, that we just may have to accept different opinions.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

And that's a can I just ask all of the guys, real quick, to think about what a refreshing perspective in the culture that we live in today, where if you have a differing opinion from somebody else, you're immediately supposed to hate each other, have nothing to do with one another, and cancel each other as much as you can. So, what a refreshing viewpoint that you have, CJ, that could really actually do some good in our culture in the United States of America today, but broader in the world, that you can have different viewpoints and still work together. Uh, so I really love that. And I just have to be honest with you. This is what I see in you, CJ, because Jen, Jen, my wife, sends me memes with little children, and it says, What did you learn today? And the little, the little boy or girl says, I've learned that it is not okay to throat punch people for being stupid. So, you know, that's where I'm coming from. And you have this incredible humble boldness to want to actually hear different viewpoints and and work through that. And we're gonna find out. And I know there's a couple other guys on the call this morning, CJ, uh, when we get to your your your mission and your values, you're you're you're also gifted and enjoy problem solving. Uh so I think that's gonna go hand in hand with you, this different viewpoints and wanting to hear what other people have to say. So yeah. Obi, go ahead and switch it to the mission.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Yeah, so that's more my mission statement then is how can I take this vision of solving different viewpoints and apply it to uh real-world situations. And so my mission statement that I came up with is to create imaginative solutions with unique perspectives that bring excitement and joy to those in need.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Yeah, and this is a so there's a lot in that statement. This is an actual mission statement. So, you know, when we go through this process, what you guys are gonna find if you'll take the time and be intentional about it, which most men are not. I'm just gonna throw that out there. So, CJ, you're already doing things in a manly way that a lot of guys won't take the time and the intentionality to do. But you're gonna find out these are not like sitting down in front of one another, CJ, at a happy hour and going, oh, CJ, what do you think your mission statement would be? CJ, tell them a little bit of the guys, a little bit about the process of crafting to get to these statements because to create imaginative solutions with unique perspectives that bring excitement and joy to those in need, that's got a lot in it. That's not a you didn't come up with that in 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

No, no, I can't say I did. Uh, it was a lot of thinking about what I enjoy doing. What where do I thrive? What uh gifts and talents has God given me? And it was built off of my vision statement, but I also wanted to incorporate not just what I do for work, which is computer programming, but also what I enjoy when I'm not at work, which is a lot of times just escaping from reality through fiction and movies and war games and creative writing. And I'm an introvert at heart, and I just love being able to share experiences where we can use our imagination. So I imagination was just a key word that uh both I can use in computer programming when I'm solving problems at work. I imagination is uh something I can use when I'm just having to maintain my own household. And imagination is something I can use even when I'm just at home and trying to just relax and recuperate and bring joy and um my life into others.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

I know, and how how great is this, though? How we we wouldn't have known these things about you, CJ, that are actually pretty exciting to have a friend that is this focused on imagination the way that you are, and to hear all of the different aspects of your life where you believe creative imagination and creative problem solving are such a huge aspect of that.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

So you know, and I'm I it it really is, it's it's not something that I you hear a lot when you're talking about people and their their views on the gospel and their calling, right? I don't hear that used enough, and I think that we need that people that are using their imagination, their God-given imagination to further the gospel. And I I just love hearing that.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

And you can kind of see, like I I can just see CJ U and JB sitting down and having a talk about storytelling. Uh, you know, because you both are very imaginative and you both love telling stories uh from a creative standpoint. So now that you can start to see, oh, you too, right? So that whole C.S. Lewis statement now becomes real. Like, oh, there's another guy over here that I know, just looking at Obi, that I know that you guys could sit down and probably talk about stories for hours.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Yeah. And even uh JB, I know we have would have a lot in common too, just about in my vision statement, how I put healthy and fulfilling life, because it's not just mental and spiritual healthiness that I believe in, but also physical, um, health-filled lives I believe in as well. And yeah, I'd love to talk about stories with JB and maybe get a workout in with him at the men's retreat.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

And I I love the commercial you just gave for the next three weeks of whole life health and wellness and our best practices. Thanks, CJ. Good job. Well, Obi, let's go ahead and take a look at CJ's. We got his value statements. And there's something that we do unique with this that some of you guys may have heard and some of you may not. We try and write down five value statements that really uh now get to the heart of what do I do every day that actually shows that I'm living out my mission and and aiming towards my vision. And four of them are very unique to who you are. But the fifth one we all share with the MLC, all the brothers in the MLC, and CG, I'll let you share that one at the end and kind of why we do that. But take us through your four personal values that you've come up with that go with your vision and mission.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

One is something that is important, very important to my faith life. It's defend God's word, uplift the Christian faith by bringing peaceful resolution first and avoid unsolvable problems when I can't. And two is never lie to my family or friends, but only withhold information to honor my duty to God. And always strive to overcome adversity with truth, honesty, and knowledge. And three, build people up while avoiding negative slander or gossip that is not used for the purpose of restoring and protecting others. Four, look after God's creation in a diligent and loving way that includes my family, home, property, and community. I will maintain conviction with compassion for those in need and be generous with my own resources.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Yeah, once again, I just want to share the different perspective that men that have been radically redeemed in Christ and the way that they not only see themselves, but how they see their place in the world. I wish these four values, CJ, were being lived out by more and more of our leaders that are actually in front of us day in and day out.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Careful, Andy. You're talking crazy.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

I know.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

I I do too, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

So go ahead and share the fifth one and what you thought about when you first heard that we all share the fifth value on the MLC when we write these out.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah, the fifth value that we all share is to confidently say no to anything that would distract or prevent me from advancing values one through four. I thought it was great. You already wrote one for me. But to be honest, it's it's just it's it's perfect. It's it's the what's going to be the one that I always come back to because I can't live out my own values perfectly. I have moments where I don't. I mean, I feel like maybe these I almost wonder if these are in order of like the easiest to hardest, because there's definitely moments where I don't want to look after God's creation in a diligent way or be generous with my own resources and time. So that's when the fifth one can come into play and help curb me back into alignment with what God's purpose that He created me to live out and to give me accountability so that I can say no to the things that aren't uh going to help me live out my purpose values. Because there's countless things in this world, countless directions, countless choices. God gives us a lot of freedom. But as the older and older I get, the more I realize that there is a path and a purpose and that God's created me for and gifted me to follow and learning more about that and is what allows me to stay on that path more clearly.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Yeah, you know, in the Psalms it says, uh, you've given me beautiful boundary lines, boundary lines in beautiful places. And I think sometimes we think boundary lines are restrictive instead of actually opening up, you know, more of that creativity, more of that imagination, that when we have good boundary lines that God's given us, uh, we do more. More of a fulfilling purpose in the way that He's created us to be. And I think confidently saying no to anything that would get in the way of one through four is kind of like those beautiful boundary lines that help us stay in that beautiful space that God's created us for. Yeah. So Obi, go ahead and switch it now. We have everybody that we go to that. They kind of share a light verse. And CJ, yours was perfect because this is actually the verse for sharing your story. So for, you know, on the best practices, Obi, number five, sharing your story is First Peter 3.15. And CJ, that happened to be your life verse. So if you don't mind sharing that, reading it for the guys that don't see it, that are listening this morning, and why you picked that verse or why God spoke that verse to you and why it's important to you.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Absolutely. Uh the verse I picked was 1 Peter 3.15. But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. Yet do it with gentleness and respect. And this was a verse that I've feel like uh in my journey as I've been coming around and becoming closer to Christ, becoming more sanctified, that I've has always worked its way into my life of how to uh talk about God's word and my faith because gentleness and respect isn't something that comes naturally, it's come to me through God. And it's it's very easy to be zealous and self-righteous and angry. And I think gentleness and respect gives me perspective, but also just the purpose of having Christ in my heart and being prepared to defend him when necessary, not just hoping that I'll um be that God will make me prepare, be prepared when I need to be prepared, but actually putting the time and effort into finding out the answers to questions that people may have about the Bible, about the faith, these these hard questions that are hard to answer and come up so often about like why why is why does the um why why do scientists say what they say and why does the Bible seem to say something different? Things like that. Very just hard questions that a lot of people have. I I like to help them with that and be prepared to have an answer for what I think and what my opinions are.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

Yeah, nice. And you know, the world we live in today, I have a question is how come some people point to science for certain things and then when other things come up, they go, Oh, science doesn't matter here. So that's another that's a question I'm thinking through right now and and writing some stuff and some research down to help people answer that with gentleness and respect. Like, how how come science matters to you over here, but all of a sudden you say it doesn't apply over here?

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Sure, absolutely. I'm I can think of a few examples worth through.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Yeah, we won't get into those today because we want to stay on your story. Uh, but you know, when I think of when I think of what you just said, and especially with 1 Peter 3:15, Jesus tells a parable in the Bible, in the gospels, about a Pharisee and a tax collector that are both in the temple for worship. And the Pharisee is basically doing the social media burst in front of everybody. Uh, he's filtered his life and and and putting out there the best. And he's praying to God, and he's, you know, looking upward and very proud of himself, very self-righteous in his pharisaic, you know, following of the law according to what he thinks he does. And he looks over at the tax collector and he says, Thank God I'm not like that guy, Lord. Thank God you made me that I'm not like that poor sinner. And then you have the tax collector, though, who's on the other side of the temple. He's on the ground. Uh, he's humble, he's bent over, he's beating his chest and asking for forgiveness. You know, and and Jesus says, Which one walked out that day righteous? You know, so we're talking about stories that have an honest, open, honest vulnerability to them, Obi, where when we share them and we walk away from, we go, wow, that guy is righteous, not because of anything that he's done, but because of what God has done in his life through Christ. And uh, CJ, that really is a huge part of the center of your story. So, Obi, let's go ahead and get into the hero's journey with CJ this morning's guys. I'm really excited. Going into the He's Heroes Journey, 1 Peter 3:15 with you, CJ, and just kind of start from the beginning. You already shared with us a little bit earlier that your upbringing was, you know, for many of us, you grew up in a Christian household, probably baptized early in life, those kind of things. So just kind of share your early upbringing and what that those early formational days were like.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, my childhood started off fairly normal. I was baptized as an infant. My mom taught me to pray and encourage good Christian habits. I learned quickly through church and Sunday school that if I believed in Jesus, I would go to heaven. Despite embracing God's grace early on, the trials of sin remained. Perhaps the most impactful example was my dad's temper. His harsh anger and excessive corporal punishment scarred me more emotionally than physically as a child. So this is where my story might change or it might sound similar to a lot of people. And I wasn't always the victim to cope with my feelings of weakness. I mimicked the sinful behaviors of classmates whenever I felt unwanted. I tried to earn friendships and boost my self-esteem by mimicking their cruelty and turning it onto easier targets than myself.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

And do you think some of that was not just a not just a projection of what you were receiving from your dad, but it was some of that a desire for acceptance with your dad's anger feeling rejective towards you?

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Yeah, and I think it's just a lack of not knowing and not having good godly examples and trying to figure out how to uh find some sort of acceptance, some sort of love, some sort of and to feel valued. And there's a this sinful animal instinct to fight or flight. And I think um, in regards to my dad, I would flight, but then in school, suddenly it was time to fight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

Well, there was some pent-up aggression there that you you needed to take out on somebody else because of the way that those things were going. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah. Okay. And uh at home, my parents' marriage was a constant struggle. My sisters and I were often exposed to our dad's loud and sometimes physical shouting matches with my mom. I was a teenager getting ready for high school when they sat us down and told they were getting, told us they were getting a divorce. Again, I tried to hide from my feelings of weakness. I pretended their separation didn't bother me. And unfortunately, my lack of honesty made my upcoming transition to high school even worse.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Yeah, you know, it's a it's interesting to me. Uh, CJ, just the guys that do know you a little bit or would see you, and that you have been blessed with this calm, kind of humble exterior, that there was a lot of turmoil in the earlier years of your life. Uh, and and do you think, uh, and we're gonna continue with your story, it's you know, it's gonna continue to have some struggles through it, but do you think that you would be the guy that you are today on your own without Christ and without other brothers uh that you're doing life with?

SPEAKER_03 29:52

No, no, I absolutely wouldn't. And I wonder that all the time. Like, I don't know if anybody else does, but yeah, I I do wonder, yeah, without Christ, where would I be? What if I if all the path, and I hope you guys see this through my story, but if I had followed the path that I wanted to choose, which is so many times different from following Christ, um that I can't imagine the the dark places it would have taken me.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

And it and and and some of those decisions did take you some dark places. Uh, you know, like you were just talking about your transition into your high school years are going to be even harder because you had a decision to make when your parents divorced of who to live with. And that's a pretty guys, when we talk about when you're looking at your hero's journey and you're looking at significant moments in your life where you can stop and look at uh a season or a decision or something that you're like, oh wow, this is definitely a big one. CJ, for you choosing to live with your dad instead of your mom was a pretty monumental moment in your hero's journey.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

It was, yeah. And so I had to make this choice, but I also want to highlight just how subtle and important the church was for me at this time because growing, even though I had this bad family life, I still had a family with a strong tradition of faith and strong um grounded roots in the church. So I was going through confirmation about the same time, and I had a good relationship with my pastor at the small Christian school I went to. After our confirmation class, he prepared us for moving on to high school and made himself available for any questions we had. And I made use of his time more than once. And I found that through these discussions, God was laying a groundwork for who I am today, too, that allowed me to start thinking deeply about issues of faith and the questions that arose. I felt a strong spiritual connection when taking communion and learned why Lutherans believed baptism was so important, even for infants, despite baptism not being required for salvation. And I grounded myself in communion and baptism as visible connections to God while also remaining somewhat involved in church. Um, and that kept me rooted in God's love more than I realized. So then when I was making this decision about where to live with my mom or my dad, I didn't have wisdom, but I did still have God with me. And that was just a comfort knowing that I could see how God was with me, even when I was making foolish decisions. So the reason I made my decision foolishly is because I knew my dad preferred to raise me to be as independent as possible with little oversight from him. Yeah. Meanwhile, my mom was trying for protect us from bad influences, which meant I couldn't watch rated R movies under her rules. Knowing my dad's rules could be summarized as don't make him angry, I felt eager to have the freedom he offered. And there was also a part of me that yearned for his love even after he caused me so much pain. And knowing he didn't want to be alone after divorce gave me hope that I could earn his affection by choosing to live with him. So I made my decision with the wisdom of a teenager and was the only child out of three who chose to live with him. Were you the only boy? Were you the only son? I was the only boy, yes. I have two sisters, and I was also the oldest. So suddenly I had more freedom than I knew what to do with going into high school. My changing world became very noisy, and God's voice was slowly drowned out by that noise. My attention drifted from God to pleasing loudest voices I could. And you can imagine some of those what those voices might sound like in high school.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Yeah. Give us a couple of them that you struggled with, just so guys know that they're not the only ones.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah. Um, well, I guess pornography, marijuana, alcohol. Um I don't remember if it what order it was in, but the more I gave in to sin, the more control, powerful and in control it made me feel. Um, I would say actually, I think I do remember. I would say it was pornography first, then alcohol, then marijuana. Yeah, probably in that order. And so um, and also there was also a lot of um contention and fighting in my dad's family versus my mom's family, and I tried to please those voices by joining in on gossip about her.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Um, so yeah, you said they weren't saying some very very very kind things about your mom during that period, and and that yeah, how did that how does that feel today to share with the guys that you joined in on some of that? Looking back, just reflecting.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

I think it feels honest. I think it feels deserved because I what I do want to show is that my mom deserves a lot of credit for who I am today. And so I think showing giving her credit for the difficulty she had to overcome by escaping this marriage with my dad and and how hard that was on her while also managing three teenage children and trying to help us be the best people we could be. I think it just she deserves a lot of credit for, and I like to give it to her out of my love and gratitude for her.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Nice. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, so in this uh time period, you know, you're living with your dad, you're you're listening to the louder voices, sin is growing. Uh, you know, your freedom that you were so excited about is actually kind of closing in on you more and more. You didn't recognize it at the time, but it's beginning to close in on you in such a way that there was a actually a very difficult moment that came up between you and your dad during this time period. His, hey, you have all the independence you want, just don't make me mad.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Yes. It's uh it's putting a lot of responsibility on the other person, and I'm sure nothing unfortunately has really changed from before. Somehow it felt like it would be different if I could convince myself that my mom was a problem and my dad was actually an okay guy, but it wasn't true. I wasn't being honest with myself, and if I could convince myself that these sins were gonna make me happy and that everyone else did it, so they're okay, they don't really do any harm. God, like the Bible's just old and overly restrictive, and there's not any real consequences that are gonna come out of these sins. That's not true. I was pretty miserable, and my dad was pretty miserable, and eventually a fight with my dad over chores escalated to me deciding to move out. I I did when my my requests, all my requests for my dad for food, love, and attention were not being met, and I was getting disdain and condescension from him, so I wanted to leave. And when I decided to move, he refused to let me go and physically restrained me when I tried to leave. So I was 16, but he was still stronger and I sustained some minor injuries escaping. Fortunately, I still escaped safely to my mom's, where I knew in my heart that she wanted me to be safe, that and that she cared and loved about me, despite me trying to convince myself otherwise so that I could have the freedom that I thought would make me happy. And she welcomed me back warmly, affectionately, but and called the police but to tell them what happened. But from the police, we discovered that my dad had already called them when I had escaped and had falsely claimed I hit him. And the police were already on their way to detain me at my dad's request. So when the police came, they informed us about a mark that was visible on my dad's face and that he claimed was for me hitting him. It was a lie to protect himself, and it wasn't the first time he had done that, but I told the truth to the police, even the details that made me look bad. But it took my mom's credibility to get me off the hook. She stepped in and informed them about my dad's abusive past. And the police officer admitted his surprise and said that if it wasn't for my mom, I would have been leaving in the police car.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

So this is I just, you know, you oh, I don't know if I have as exciting a story as this guy or that guy. You're coming to a moment in your relationship with your mom where she steps into the courtroom like Christ and takes everything on for you uh that you couldn't do for yourself. I hope you guys see that kind of beauty and that kind of grace uh that's given, you know, that Jesus tells a parable about that has this courtroom kind of story to it where, you know, God sends his son into the courtroom on your behalf when you're guilty. You know, and I love CJ what you shared. It was like, look, I was guilty of some things, and I even told the police that side of it. But it was the, you know, the your mom and their understanding of her honesty between not only your own guilt and your dad's guilt, uh, you know, that they listen to her. And that that is just very talk about radical redemption. That is very much the way that it works in all of our lives, guys, with God sending his son Jesus Christ, is he steps into the courtroom on our behalf when we're guilty and when other people in the courtroom are guilty for our behavior, and he forgives us for it and takes our place. So really neat to kind of hear that story from your, you know, regarding your mom and actual grace in the Bible with Christ. I don't know if you've ever thought about it that way before.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Yeah, absolutely. And another parable it reminds me of just the prodigal son. I felt like it. Uh, it was my mom instead of a father figure, but it was an extreme moment of grace, absolutely, where she stood up for me and she still loved me despite the difficulties we had because she knew um the negative things that I was saying to her and the the way that I had been treating her like she was somehow the worst parent, even though she had my best interest at heart, and she forgave me for it and just wanted the best for me.

SPEAKER_04 40:08

That's awesome. And then that's the end of the story. You lived happily ever after from that point on. College wasn't a struggle, dating wasn't a struggle, marriage hasn't been a struggle, parenting hasn't been a struggle, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:22

That all I can say is Christ was continues to walk with me day by day, and I wish that my life was immediately and radically changed, but I still carried out an abundance of naive teenage arrogance that well led me to a desperate search and proof of my own self-worth at that point. I still believed in God and Jesus as my savior, but I didn't feel led to seek him out. Instead, I continued to measure my value through the approval of others.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

And thank goodness that naive teenage male hubris doesn't follow us all the way, like up into our 50s.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

So, yeah, it's it's probably easy to just say, oh, that's just him being a teenager, but yeah, we have so much in common and forget what it was like back then. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Well, and the old man is a reality, and the old man doesn't go away until Christ returns, you know, fully. So that battle is ongoing, and that's you know, also a unique aspect of your openness and your honesty is the battle between the old man and the new man followed you into college. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Yeah, I mean, and again, I just want to point out again, the church was continually there for me when I needed it. There was a church elder who taught me mechanical skills and helped me replace my car after I totaled it during this time period. And the church was giving my mom guidance after his divorce regarding a second virginity, which she demonstrated what dating with purity looked like after the divorce. These moments kept God's church fondly in my mind, and I still believed I was doing fine and wasn't looking for God to do any miracles in my life, but I wanted to prove that I could make something of myself of my own. So, having such a strong desire to create my own identity, I forged ahead from high school to college. And my school of choice was an expensive tech school on the opposite side of the United States, where I accrued a large amount of student loan debt, believing the degree would guarantee the job. And then with debt looming over my head, there were several times I pleaded with God to help me complete this computer programming degree, which I was struggling with. And I half-heartedly promised to serve God if he gave me what I wanted. But I graduated with average grades and failed to get hired in my dream job of programming video games.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

And that was all God's fault for not following up on his end of the bargain that you started with him.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

I can't say I did blame God, actually. I'm not that type of person. I I maybe I could have, but no, I wanted to prove that my self-worth, and if I was failing, I thought it meant that I didn't have self-worth. So I went through a lot of dark thoughts and dark periods. There'd be times, like I said, it was on the other side of the United States, there'd be times where I was flying, and there was a scene from a movie I really liked about a fight from Fight Club where Tyler Derton's on a plane and he's like praying for a mid-air collision. And sometimes, like, wow, that almost feels nice right now. And I just because I didn't feel like I was succeeding. I was like, well, might as well just end it now. Midair collision would be nice.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

And when that's the that's the reality of men being honest with each other is we all go through at different times dark mental thoughts, dark emotional, you know, feelings. Uh, and to share that with one another to know that you know, there's not something wrong with you, CJ, because you went through those thoughts. Those are actually fairly normal thoughts for broken, sinful men.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Mm-hmm. Yep. Absolutely. I think so. I mean, and it's also a result. Of not being strongly grounded compared to where I am today. I think Christ continues to sanctify me and helps me uh keep me from going to darker places and also knows the limits of what I can handle. So as the stress in my student loan debt grew, as more time passed, I felt helpless and I decided to take any job I could get back in my hometown because again, I was trying to do this myself. I wanted to prove myself worth by fixing my own situation. So I just had to get any job I could get just to feel like I was doing something about my student loan debt. And it was frustrating that God wasn't cooperating with my dream, but I still blamed myself. And I settled for a temporary job working at a local movie theater as a projectionist where I enjoyed staying unseen in the dark and operating film projectors and using my problem-solving skills just to keep the movies running, keep the movies working, and watching movies to distract me in the meantime. And because I was in my hometown back where I wasn't supposed to be, I wanted to be working a successful career somewhere else. Seeing anyone I knew made me self-conscious of my failure. My interactions never gave anyone the impression that I was anything like Jesus. I came off as vain, judgmental, and mostly a jerk. All things that people literally used and described me as uh back then.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

So then at that same time your love for a story grew.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Yes, I think so. I and it never died. I I loved stories because they would help lift me out of the darkness. I think um, even if you're not a Christian, I think um have listening to a story and thinking about something someone else who's going through something um will help make the pressure of your own situation not feel quite as severe.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

I think people underestimate the power of stories of redemption to give hope during dark times, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Well, I think I might have stayed this way if God hadn't brought my new stepfather to be a part of our family. And my mom had always dated men based on their character after my dad, because she didn't want to repeat the same mistake. But Chris, my stepfather, went above and beyond in how well he treated and cared for my mom. Uh, some of you guys might have remembered him from the men's retreat if you were there. I brought him with last year, and he respected, he even respected her virtue by sleeping on the couch after driving an hour to visit her. He was a chivalrous gentleman and a true Christian at heart. And my stepfather knew the frustrations I was going through with being unable to use my college skills to earn an income. But through him, God used his story of transitioning from a police officer to an IT technician to encourage me also to go back to school for more education. And meanwhile, my mother, him continued to show me grace by allowing me to live with them to save money while I enrolled in college a second time for a more complete degree in computer science. Wow. All right. How old were you when you went back in? Uh 21 or 22, I think. Yeah, so I felt old, um, especially because I was taking freshman level classes, but also it was a blessing because I had things that I could that would help me in the situation that others didn't have too. And God had placed me in that place at the right time with the right preparation.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

And then with with your stepdad, I I would also just say, you know, the don't underestimate the power of the American cultural story of the self-made man and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and how that can overwhelm us. But it sounds like God put Chris in your life at that particular time to be a mentor that has character, to say, you know, go back and do the hard things.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Yeah, he was definitely a great example for my life of what I wanted to be, a picture of the man I wanted to be. And I've always found myself gravitating towards good examples of men who have the characteristics in life that I of what I want to be, because I didn't have a great example of that in my own biological father. But now Chris came to my life and I saw, okay, this is what a good family should look like. Uh and then suddenly I started realizing, okay, this is why God has me at home right now. This is why my plans, my dream didn't work out the way it should. Because if I didn't have this, I wouldn't have this example. I wouldn't have be able to see what God was growing me towards. God had already shown me the example of what of the type of family life I didn't want to have. And now He was showing me the example of the family life that he did want me to have. And I also, with my stepfather, I also had two new stepbrothers, and our family grew larger, and I had to learn a lot of patience because they were young. But it was just a great period where God was growing me and showing me of what healthy family looked like.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Do you think looking back on that now, that during that time period that had a positive impact that worked against the American cultural self-made man, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps? My self-worth is in what I do. And did that start to affect you in a positive way to not have that burden on you as much? Or did that come later?

SPEAKER_03 49:51

I think it definitely came later. At this time in my life, I was still trying to pull myself up by the bootstraps. Absolutely. I believed it was up to me that my circumstances were under my control. And now I can see how much that still continues to impact the people around me when I would rather than give control to God, I would push people away still to be like, okay, if if you get in my way of achieving this this time, I can't let anything distract me from messing this up again a second time. And I wasn't putting a lot of trust in God because of that, because I believed that anything that could get in my way would be an inconvenience. So I was still having struggle, trouble with that. And that was because of the uh pull myself up by the bootstraps mentality, where it just really meant that I couldn't trust God fully in these moments.

unknown 50:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

But through the talents and gifts that I now recognize God gave me at in 2009, at the age of 25, I graduated with my bachelor's degree in computer science. And having my entire family support gave me the confidence I needed to continue down that path with a second degree in hand and a new vision of what healthy family looked like. The timing was right. God provide quickly provided jobs to slowly pay back my student loans. It required moving to Charlottesville, Virginia for three years, then to Dallas, Texas after that, which is where I am now. Wherever God's provision led me, that's where I was willing to go. And to show my appreciation, I now sought out a church again, which I had that was one of those things I had pushed aside. I was like, okay, if this get is gonna get in the way, I have to pull myself up my by my bootstraps. Church is only going to be an inconvenience. But to show my appreciation, I now saw it out of church to thank God for all he had given me. I was now living away from my family again, but God made sure I wasn't alone by continually sending believers in Christ to inspire me. Their joy made Christianity seem like a blessing rather than a chore. And I wanted to feel that same confidence in God that they had. So I found the more I surrounded myself with Christians who lived out their faith, the easier it became to repent of my own sins in my life. God convicted me merely by the presence of God's word in his church and through other believers. It didn't require anyone confronting me. God did it by his own, on his own, by drawing me closer to him.

SPEAKER_04 52:31

Yeah, you need you mean God's word actually does what it says. Yes, absolutely. There we go. Yeah, that's pretty good. It was at work. Yeah, yeah, I would just say the subtlety though, during that time period of how you just described compartmentalization. Hey, I gotta focus on getting a job, pay back my bill. Church can wait. And we just we compartmentalize things so subtly, so easily that we don't understand the subtlety of, hey, Jesus will wait, I gotta get on this right now, instead of Jesus at the center of what you're actually doing.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yes. Yes, and it had way more negative effects than I realized until after than I incorporated church. And then I realized, okay, now that I am getting peace, now I'm receiving um calm. Now I'm being uh sanctified. And a defining moment was when a sermon on James 2.24 called me to action to demonstrate the faith I had inside me. I knew I had been neglecting God's leadership over my life, and I felt guilty calling Jesus my savior while deliberately disobeying God. And so one by one I was addressing the deeper ways I was breaking God's commandments, such as pirating off the internet, hidden porn habits, and selfishness with my time and possessions. Perhaps the most biggest and most notable change was even how I dated women. Uh, alcohol was a convenient way to mask the underlying problems of my relationships until now until now, but I put away those childish impulses and let my courage come from God instead of relying on foolish impaired behavior that always led to regret.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You too, brother. Just so you know. Yeah, but I you know, what I love about that particular aspect of the story is transformation is not just real in in or not just hypothetical in some kind of theological way. The transformation was real in life. Like things were actually changing about who you were and how you were going about the way you lived.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yeah, it was. So I I this is where I started to become very close to God and spent a great deal of time in His Word. I was always analyzing and feeling out my connection to God in a very real and personal way, and discussions with other believers reignited my interests and doctrinal beliefs. And I was praying a lot. I felt called to defend Christianity by answering hard questions, both for myself and for others. I started using apologetics and uh study Bibles and opportunities arose to volunteer churches and other organizations, but I found I was meeting more guys to call friends than I did potential wives. And just as it says in 1 Corinthians 7 9, I knew that I burned with passion for a wife marriage. And I was crying out to God often just because I I was trying to keep my I was repenting of the lust that that I had in my heart and for a partner and for other women. But in the temptations, God helped me to keep part of myself pure. And I'll be honest, I was a virgin into my 30s. Um, and how that happened was best attributed to a certain amount of healthy fear. The family turmoil I experienced as a child left me determined never to repeat it. So for my parents, things didn't go as planned. They discovered they had made me by accident months before their wedding, but knowing their story made me think carefully about how I wanted to live mine so that I didn't repeat that same mistake. Abortion was never going to be an option for me. Um, and I wanted to make an effort at abstinence to and in order to feel safe from repeating this their mistakes. And it was a safe way of repeating to keep myself from repeating that type of mistake of an accidental pregnancy. Not that I would judge anyone and fault anyone who goes through that situation. I respect anyone who continues to raise uh a child up like my mom did immensely, but um, I wanted to pick marriage partner as wisely as I could. And in some ways, I think I gave myself the um false assumption that if I the more carefulness and time I put into picking a marriage partner, the more perfect they would be. And that may have set me up for some problems later on. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_04 57:14

Yeah. Michael's raising you too, brother. Yeah. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

So the extra time I spent being single provided God with more time to shape me into who he wanted me me to be. The few relationships I did have left me with a realization of how easily triggered I was by the emotions of others. Growing up in a dysfunctional household left its mark. And it was getting harder to blame anyone but myself for any type of social struggles I'd have, particularly listening and sympathizing with people I cared about was a tremendous challenge. Emotions just made me uncomfortable. Other people's emotions and anger and sadness, it it was something that I didn't feel comfortable with, and I had to make a conscious effort to improve. Somehow I knew I had to stop my defensive responses if I wanted to be successful in a long-term relationship with a potential wife. Um, and PTSD came to mind, but it seemed like a term reserved for war veterans, not victims of domestic abuse. But a quick internet search led me to exposure therapy as a solution to PTSD. So I tried it out and immediately found this that this type of specialized therapy was helpful only after a few sessions. And it took four years of working on my anger, grief, and other trauma before I started to feel like a better person.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Wow. Yeah. So the journey is not always simple and it's not always short.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

No, no, it's definitely not. Not maybe it's short up on God's timeline, but for us, it can feel like a long time.

SPEAKER_04 58:56

Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that that four years of of the counseling and the therapy to be able to to to recognize the impact that your past had on you and was continuing to have on you. And it's so huge. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:14

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I hope we're not running too late on time because I do want to then start wrapping the story up and telling me right in flutes. Because finally in 2015, I met my future wife on an online dating website. Sean and I liked each other right away and approached dating similarly using a biblical lens guided by our faith in Christ. We both practiced abstinence and were dating with the intention of finding a permanent marriage partner. Also, the fact that our relationship was so much less stressful compared to my previous relationships was a great sign. So, with the encouragement of all our friends and family, it became obvious after a year that it was time for me to propose. Once we were married, we began the steps of navigating the challenges that I mentioned. Coming from two different cultures, backgrounds, conflicts arose. God's grace helped us through many of these difficulties.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

Yeah, nice. And then again, happily ever after, everything went perfect from that point on, right? Unfortunately not.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

I somehow again thought that maybe that my willpower alone, just like I did in college, was enough to help me become a good parent. And I would think I realized I needed, even though I didn't make the same mist all the same mistakes that my dad did, I started finding myself making the mistakes he did when I felt powerless that in regard and uh when especially when we had children, and my children were making me feel like I wasn't a good parent. I would shout and lose my temper and be ashamed at even sometimes throwing things and just scaring my family and scaring myself with how angry I was and how much my anger at feeling powerless and threatened by my by not being as good of a parent as I wanted to be made me feel. And I would uh yeah, so that was a struggle for me, and sometimes it continues to be a struggle for me still. I I I realized that being a parent is hard. Once I had a our first child, I saw a boy we named Eli, and um well, um, we eventually then uh went through an even more struggle after that because a miscarriage surprised us by being the hardest trial of our marriage yet. And in our grief, I felt like I had a lot of good skills to talk about these things and work through these things, come approach things from different viewpoints. I tried to talk to my wife about everything I was feeling. Well, she preferred to grieve alone through this miscarriage and avoid feeling judge during this sensitive period for her. That affected her probably more than it affected me. And our conflicts grew worse until eventually we felt option out of options, and it was like we were stuck.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:18

My what'd you guys do? Like, because you know, we talked a little bit about the coming to the understanding that men and women grieve differently, and you didn't fully recognize that till this moment. Uh, and you wanted to talk through everything, she didn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Yeah, yes, absolutely. We're two different people, and God brought us together with our differences for a reason, and we had to learn that, but we needed help learning that. My familiarity with therapy helped persuade Shauna to try marriage counseling, and it was hard and scary for her to accept that at first because it made her think we were failing. It made her think we were approaching divorce. But having a professional guide us through our personal issues and achieve better communication brought us the peace that we needed. We started to learn to treat each other like partners instead of adversaries, and we became more comfortable with our feelings of anger and sadness without making anyone feel like their emotions were wrong. But most importantly, we had God to help maintain our commitment to each other through it all. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

No, and I this is the beauty of not doing life alone, even in your marriage, guys. So sometimes we can feel like, well, I have a partner, you know, I'm not doing life alone. But in your marriage, you can start to do life alone without recognize it. And this is the beauty of having a third party like a counselor who's not in there to judge one or the other. But what you just said, CJ, the best, uh, a really good counselor will bring you to a moment of communicating better with one another and rebuilding that trust that may be escaping you through the lack of communication or poor communication. That should also be the function of the MLC and the brotherhood that we have in Christ is to further that communication with one another. There's no one here to judge one or the other person, but how do we communicate our stories with each other so that we can grow in Christ and become more and more of who he wants us to be? And it seems like you and Shauna found that in that counseling opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

We did. Yeah, it was helpful and we continue to use and open ourselves up to resources that will help us in our communication to this day. Because while we learn these techniques, we mentally have them in our heads. We put them into practice in the hard moments where stress stress is taking over and our limbic systems are no longer allowing the logical part of our brains to function, it becomes a harder matter entirely. And old habits still come up.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

But this this goes to the same point about living out the Christian life. You can know God's word and not practice it, and it it won't have any practical effect. Well, the same thing, you can know the right things to think about counseling or the right things to think about how to deal with one another in crisis situations or whatever, but to not practice it doesn't change anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:16

Right, right. It's just like any other type of exercise um or physical wellness that we do. Yes, we have to train ourselves to do it well, even in the hard moments.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:29

Yeah, for sure. Patrick, you've got your hand up real quick. Did you have a question for CJ?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

No, I just wanted to add my own personal thoughts before I had to go real quick. Yeah. With parenting, you know, being a single parent of my own, raising my kids for the past 12 years after their mom passed away. Um, what he says is is right. Yeah, with with kids, you know, it's something I've come to learn is that you do need to seek out those resources. Also, kid kids are are they're human too, they're individuals as well. You know, you can't just use one method for. every single one of them they all have their own things so so but yeah you should also seek out help seek out seek out references seek seek out counseling and stuff like that so and me and Tazid they've talked about this in the past when when when he's asked me and stuff about that you know what I've done and stuff and yeah you that's what you need to do it just just not trying is the is the only way to fail really just just keep going you know and if if you get to the point you know uh we like not sure what else to do you you know that's that's when you should publish your own God but you know even though they say you publish your turn God first beginning but that's just what we end up doing anyways we turn to God at the end after like oh man I tried everything I can't think of anything else to do God what do I do now you know it should be it should be you know the other way around but yeah that that was just my include ad yeah no thanks that's really good and I would just throw out you know uh be be cautious also the subtlety of just reach out to God on your own uh actually the entirety of scripture is we should be reaching out to God with one another uh so you know American cultural Christianity is as long as me and Jesus are okay then nothing else matters and actual biblical Christianity is no we're supposed to be reaching out to God in community with one another uh so we want to we want to continue to impress that upon the brothers too yeah thanks Patrick yeah it's good to hear you on Patrick thanks for joining us absolutely yeah slow my schedule Bob good appreciate it and CJ you know something in in this uh this Obi I'd like to engage you real quick because Obi has shared this a couple of times different times that Obi got you know obi obi had a difficulty in in his upbringing with his dad and their relationship that's that's a whole other story and Obi shared it and he can share it again but Obi one of the things that that you have shared over time is you had this focus well I don't want to be a dad like my dad.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

Yeah and and but that radically changed at the moment you were like you know what that's not what I that's not what I want to be I want to be the dad that Christ wants me to be uh so I just didn't didn't know maybe Obi if you and CJ might just engage each other on that thought process because CJ I know you shared with me and I didn't want to be a father like my father but that's still selling yourself a little bit short of the the phrase no I want to be a father the way Christ wants me to be a father.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

Yeah I think that resonated really well when I was reading uh CJ's story and when I was reading through that because so many of us do that right where we focus on I want to be the father never dad never was I don't want to be like my dad I'm shaping my life around this model uh when in fact Christ is telling me you you know and and and the gospel tells me that I'm just like my dad you know I'm I there's a common denominator in all of that there's the the sinful nature that separates me from God and Christ is calling me to be like him and he trans he's the one that transformed me to be more like Christ to be a Christ like father and and it and there was a lot of healing in that realizing that that the Lord took what I was what what my idea of a father was and he showed me what what I should be through him.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:13

Yeah and there's a huge difference between I I don't want to be like this versus God saying I want you to be like this so you can try real hard not to be something but that's very different than the positive aspect of growing into something. So CJ any thoughts on that from just your past with your dad and now you're parenting and and you know you've come through the the very difficult challenge with Shauna of of grieving and recovering with one another after a tragic loss now to where you're you're going to have more children uh and and moving from that thought process of I don't want to be like my dad to who am I who or what does God want me to be in Christ as a father.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

Yeah it's just such a good insight to how negative our talk to ourselves can be without realizing it because I hate it when people tell me don't do this don't do this like just after that don't do that. But I much rather have people tell me well what what do you want me to do instead or what would you like give me an example of what you would like to say help me be see what you would like what makes you happy and so even when I talk to myself if I'm just saying don't be like my dad don't be like my dad I'm never telling myself what do I want to be instead and yeah I that's where I need to look to Christ find examples of Christ like in Ephesians 4 1 that I use um to especially Ephesians 4 2 I think it is where I just want to be someone who has humility gentleness patience and bearing with my children in love. And that's what I would pray and be my mantra and especially when I would know that I'd be approaching a difficult situation. But also then I begin to realize through these moments that this is where God's in control. Even when things don't work out this is where God is still in control. And because I when I'm feeling overwhelmed by things going wrong and not feeling right I want to blame myself still just like I've always done and but now I can realize okay God still has a plan in all this absolutely and how is that how is that working out right now?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:26

Where are you at in your journey? We, you know, we we obviously know on the MLC your journey's not over uh but where do you feel you're at right now uh you know this is a huge aspect of your journey is not only going through the vision mission values not only writing your story down but this is getting to share it on a Friday morning brings you to a brand new place in your journey where you're actually sharing it with other men.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:49

Oh so where do you feel you're at what are what you know what are your eyes seeing what's your heart feeling what is your mind thinking in new ways today I'm continuing to recognize all the blessings that God gives me after the miscarriage God bless us with a second child a daughter named Victoria who uh which we named her that because of the meaning victory and I'm uh looking at the circle of the hero's journey and realizing that I can now share my experience with others the and I'm and genuinely interested in seeing what type of universal truths and meanings people find in my story. I believe in hope that God will use my past for someone else's gain. And although my daily battle with sin continues, it reminds me of my need for God's grace, love and mercy. And no matter how many times I mess up, I can repent to God, turn to him for mercy. And I believe this because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his redemptive blood that's guaranteed my home with him which is ultimately what God wants for me most because what I've realized is that there's so many things that I've built up and inflated as being so important to make myself look good. But it's what God wants most for me is for me to be with him at the end of my life. And that's what he's guiding and working me towards and that that's the most important beautiful future I could hope for.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:18

Yeah and I would, you know, a story of ongoing radical redemption uh that you've shared beautifully this morning that hopefully all of us can begin to look at our own journeys with Christ and say wow it's it's a bigger story than I ever thought and it's one that needs to be shared. So last question real quick as we wrap up uh just we got to throw out the MLC commercial there with you. What is what is the what have you felt or thought about being not only a part of the MLC but going through the vision, mission values and writing your story and sharing it on a Friday morning what has that meant to you it's been great.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

It's structured organized um process that produces results and I I I love that it is something that I can work through with confidence knowing that it's based off of scripture and it is something that is only going to bring me closer to God and be for my own benefit and wellness and also for others too. This is how the world becomes a better place when we put these things into practice.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:28

Amen yeah thanks CJ and Obi if you don't mind closing us with a prayer and then guys please hang on for the after party we've asked CJ uh to give us extra time this morning for you guys to engage him and ask him any questions about his journey uh that you may have heard or connection points or anything like that. So Obi pray us out.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

Man Lord we thank you so much for being good to us thank you so much uh because through your son Jesus Christ we are uh radically transformed there's this radical change that happens and I'm grateful for for that in our lives and I'm especially grateful for CJ's for CJ's life and for his story. And I pray that through his story that you um allow others to be emboldened to share theirs to be inspired to if they've if they've kept it from them for themselves that to to share it with with the world. The world needs to know you called us to share our story that's so important. The redemptive story of the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not something we're supposed to keep ourselves. I pray that you continue working in CJ's life just as you work in ours. Allow us to not just be people who hear your word and read your word but are transformed by the very words of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We pray all of these things in your name. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Thanks for joining and listening we hope that you were truly blessed. Now you can join the live call every Friday morning at 7 a Mentral Standard Time and please bring a friend. And to learn more about the MLC visit our website at the mlc dot life that's the MLC L I F E have a great day